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On Core Philosophy Behind Fabletop
Thanks for the thoughtful write-up. =) You're correct in understanding the intent of the kind of games Fabletop was designed for.
I think the heart of it is that role-players seem to gravitate toward novelty and complexity. New rules provide a "hit" of novelty, even if they aren't really any better. And each new rule doesn't seem that complex, once you know all of the others. This is how there can be a an ever-widening gulf in dedicated gamers vs beginners or casual gamers. I've seen this in computer gaming and tabletop gaming. Experienced players learn one new rule at a time. New players have to learn the core set, PLUS all of the variations. The hard core players don't really grasp (or to some degree they don't care) how much more difficult it becomes over time for new players. In some way, that gulf is what makes them feel special -- they have invested a lot of time and want to feel that it has value (and certainly it does). But this can lead some old-timers to feel threatened by "newbies", and show a kind of animosity when they see a new player come in and doesn't understand everything right away. It's largely an empathy problem, which is made worse online where there are no body language or non-verbal cues to respond to. I made Fabletop super restricted and streamlined because I knew this was a common trend. The minute I add a d20, the games would become very math and rule-heavy. The rest I had hoped would be filled by community values. Some players "get it" more than others, which I'm really glad to see. I don't want Fabetop to be dominated by an insular group of regulars. It was always about making role-playing as accessible as possible. I'm certainly open to suggestions.
Thanks for the reply!
As for suggestions, I believe your best bet is to ask the community openly about this. Enforcing the original intent or embracing the "new wave" will inevitably alienate the old/new audience respectively, and a compromise with the community seems to be the best shot. (Although some seem to struggle even the the basic FT rules: fabletop.com/forum/topic/8456.1/learn-as-you-play-... ) That, or you could leave the site as is, forever. There will at least be a dedicated bunch to keep it going. Here's a very emblematic excerpt from a discussion we had on the topic in the Glade. I'm getting a bit miffed in this, but you can probably understand why: mylittlepony It's just that hosting rule-heavy games isn't breaking the law of the site deepestlore It effing is mylittlepony No it isn't Or else there'd be a punishment And another gem: It's not a rule because it's NEVER been enforced, ever, by any of the four people with admin powers If something isn't enforced, it isn't required
I'm going to have to comment here that it is NOT against the rules of the site. The things you list (long intros and too many house rules) are both listed as 'common mistakes' (things that will make your game worse) not 'Things NOT to do' (things that can get you banned from the site.)
Other than that, i do share your sentiment, being able to quickly make a character and play a core rules game is something of a novelty in the current community. That's not necessarily the end of the world though if people are having fun. If we want to see more core rules game, then we just need to host them! This will, over time, see them become more popular as players see how much fun they can be.
Personally, I love and prefer the more complex games. Sure, I play RP based stuff all the time, but when it really gets down to it, give me a bood of rules and a lengthy character sheet and I could have fun for hours just making a character.
I sometimes think of this argument like politics in America (and probably many other places). Theres one side of the argument who wants simpler games, and they have valid reasons why. The other side wants more complex games, again, with valid reasons why. I always hope we can eventually find a middleground and just let everyone host the games they want to host, regardless of complexity. For a small example, look at my table, The Darkness. It's complexity goes through the roof! But all the time, new players come to my table for their first game ever on Fabletop. Now, sometimes I could be in a bad mood and won't be very inviting to them, but that's rare for me. Normally, I manage to get the player into the game, despite the complexity that comes with it. Regardless, I'm just pitching in my two cents on this argument. Personally, I stand on the side of letting the complex games be the games they are, and just following the very simple policy of "If you don't like it, don't play it."
One of the ideas behind Fabletop, which I really admire, is the idea that anyone can come and join any game, and they'll already know the rules because they're all to the same simple system. But, practically, that's not how things have gone.
I think complex games have their place, even if they're not my cup of tea. The problem right now isn't that there are too many complex games, it's that there aren't enough simple games. I'm not sure how you fix that - maybe there's some way to encourage a renaissance of Fabletop games on the Fabletop site, maybe there isn't. Perhaps it comes down to 'be the change you want to see in the world' if you like the core system, host it. The more people hosting it, the more people playing it who may host it themselves.
Right, to be clear, I'm not talking about "punishing" anyone for making complex games or lore. It's about keeping the community accessible to new and casual players, and supporting story-driven / freeform games.
It's weird for a community to share the mantra is "complex is good" when one of the two member requirements is "No Rule-Players. Fabletop is for players interested in freeform storytelling-style roleplaying. If you prefer tactical or stats-heavy systems, this site might not be for you. Sorry!" (The other member requirement is also disregarded, probably often). If a member requirement isn't a rule, what is?..
Instead, you're likely to be told to go "try a forum" for rules-light narrative-driven games, and this is talking from experience. People who technically don't even like what the site stands for, tell people who do to go somewhere else. A very surreal state of events.
-- tries to resist the urge to gloat about how he was right --
Alright but seriously though, I've personally never heard anyone say "go try a forum" in my life about anything ever. Everyone here likes Fabletop, and only one other site really offers any competition ( and roll20 requires voicechat and like a hundred other things so no way i'm going there ). The reasons rules-heavy games exist on Fabletop are pretty obvious when you think about them. Fabletop is good for one-shot games, and games where you don't need the same people every time. Fabletop has a simple interface and doesn't have 5,000 unnecessary features, allowing people to start being a GM right out of the gate. The community is nice, the site is free, everything's great. Thus, if someone wants a complicated game, ( like The Darkness ) but roll20 is too complicated or they don't have a microphone or what have you, then they go here, they host their game, and like-minded people come and have fun. The people that dislike complex stuff can host their simple core adventure, and people who prefer that go there, and everyone's happy. It's not frowned upon to have a pure core table. I would know, as I have a core Medfan and a core Star Voyage table and when I was hosting it, people flocked to it. I almost never get a full house unless I'm hosting King's Mercenaries ( and then the full house dissipates into 3 party members over time but that's beside the point ). Fabletop is a haven for people who enjoy an easy experience and an easy interface, as well as for people that don't want to or can't use a microphone. As such, you'll get everything from pure Core to The Darkness. Most people enjoy a few house rules, as the core system is kind of hard to approach in a couple places, and more power to them. As for me, I don't really care what I'm playing, as long as the story is interesting and/or the battles are fun. ( oh and before someone comes in and is all like "you've never used roll20 shut up liar," I went through the entire tutorial and hated it. )
I'll just point the few things that pop out to me:
- Roll20 is, arguably, not "too complicated", you could to the same stuff you do with FT in minutes. Most of the tutorial is for advanced stuff for grand games that you wouldn't ever need. Well, that's for the "arguable" part. Now for the objective part: It does --NOT-- require a microphone. - "...the core system is kind of hard to approach in a couple places, and more power to them" One of the lightest, all-encompassing rule systems up there with play pretend is now "kind of hard to approach in certain situations".
This is turning into a "Rant or other "everything sucks" type screed." so I'm locking the thread.
reopened the thread at the request of the community. A couple of posts have been edited that last post to make things more civil. I'm trusting this thread won't lead to posts like that again - or I will be responding with site bans. Let's keep it pleasant and mature please :)
Addendum to what I said even though deepestlore hasn't been on-site in a month at the time of writing:
Yeah, I made some factual errors about roll20. I'm a stupid idiot. Really I think it just boils down to, if Fabletop has a free rule structure, then we're free to modify it and/or replace (kinda) it to suit our own tastes or the people's tastes. You do you, man.
I don't see how complexity enjoyers should just leave the site instead of having their own bubble. Everyone enjoys this site, and only a handful of people love the core philosophy of it. And beginners, and once beginners get a hang of it they'll gravitate toward complex games too.
Although the post is old, the current state of Fabletop shows how flawed the theory behind "The website is made for something simple" is. The website, with the exception of one or two private tables which are heavily house-ruled is dead. What killed it? Well in talks with potential new users and old ones, I keep contact with the reason was "We love the simplicity but its too restricted to it"
Diversity will always be key, that's why one plays tabletop games in the first place and spends time brewing a character.
I thought this was a new thread, only to see past me say exactly what I still feel about this topic! I have a few more thoughts I wanted to add
1) yes, this site seems a lot less active than it once was, which is a shame considering all the years of happy memories I have playing these games. I don't really think the system is to blame for this. Rather I think it's a mixture of browser based experiences being less popular these days, with dedicated apps often being where people look for games now (especially with the death of flash games). Also I think Fabletop was ahead of the curve in regards to virtual tabletops, where as many new options exist in this space now, often taking a more free form approach. 2) I have only in the last couple of years began to play DnD. For the most part this has been very enjoyable. But it has required me to but three books and learn a fairly complex rule set. Even then I stop the game a few times a session to Google a more niche ruling and work things out. Hosting real life tabletop dnd Haa also lead to me spending entire weekends hand drawing a dozen maps for a dungeon crawl. What I love about Fabletop is its quick and easy map making and mini placement as well as how quick the 'core' game is to both teah and play. I am probably one of very few people who has hosted real life games under the Fabletop system (I have some large A3 laminated characyer sheets for use with dry erase markers and some dice from another game with symbols on 1/3rd of the sides). These experiences were very positive for me. What I'm trying to say is that I think both crunchy and casual rule systems have their place and agree that variety can only be a good thing. That being said, I think I'd honestly prefer to play Fabletop than DnD if I could convince my friends to get away from the 'big name brand' experience. Finally, some of the most positive and enjoyable sessions I have ever played on this site have been core games with very little lore or prep. I really recommend trying it some time if you are still looking to GM a fabletop game. Choose a genre, skip the lore and house rules and just run a fun fantasy dungeon, exploration of an alien planet or mission for a team of superheroes Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this!
oman1666, not going to lie, you have kind of inspired me and gave that push to start writing. wanted to say thank you
It was this that hooked and reeled me in.
'Inspiration for the Fabletop system came from many story-centric RPGs with light-weight rules. Many are available as free PDFs. Risus FU Fate Lady Blackbird * Barbarians of Lemuria Star Wars (West End Games, D6 system, 1987) Marvel Super Heroes (TSR, FASERIP system, 1984) Also, the Thursday Knights livestream, a group of gamers who run very story-centric games each week.' I think that many here are unaware that tabletop rpgs don't have to be complex affairs rules-wise. Many of the systems listed above were on their last gasp when this site first appeared before they faded into obscurity, so many of the members were unaware of their existence, being veterans of rules-heavy systems like Pathfinder. I am a fan of the core system. (Core Medival Fantasy CC rules perfectly emulate the early editions of classic D&D, in my opinion) I also love the 'no messy math' part of the basic rules.(To me, all math is messy.) This thread did point out one of my flaws : too many house rules. Even though they were geared toward the basic core system - all they really ever were was which traits stacked on which roll - they were voluminous enough to overwhelm many players. I have only recently come up with a way to resolve rolls quickly without the player ever needing to go to the info bar or forums, and am kicking myself for not coming up with it sooner. I rambled enough now. Thank you for this thread, insight. *As much as I love D&D, 'Barbarians of Lemuria' is my absolute favorite sword & sorcery rpg! Please log in to add a comment. |
This is not an inflammatory comment, but a legitimate concern. Allow me to explain:
Fabletop was made for some quick and easy, almost hit'n'run roleplaying. This is stated in the introduction to the site: FT was made for quick freeform games, designed to make it easy for everyone to connect and play.
Some of the pros from the introduction ( fabletop.com/help/introduction#what-is-fabletop ):
- "It's easy for everyone in the community to join any other table. There's no need to learn new rules each time"
- "Less game time is taken up with rules discussion"
- "It puts the emphasis on storytelling and cinematic action, instead of rules and stats".
One of the common mistakes for new players/GMs is listed as "Too Many Houserules" ( fabletop.com/help/game-masters-guide#common-mistak... ).
You can probably see where I'm going with this.
How come Fabletop now acts in a completely opposite way to its original intent? Houserules are so prevalent, it is very hard to find a game with -core- rules these days, if at all possible. People are likely to -dismiss- your game if you use core rules. Writing up a whole system of your own for your table has now become something of an unspoken rule, a standard. To play, you have to read through a paragraph of house rules first, and that's at best. At worst, you have to read an entire set of forum topics of those rules.
A problem that ties into the previous one is the new unspoken rule of "write lore for your game". This is also against the "plug'n'play" philosophy of the site. Also under Common Mistakes ( fabletop.com/help/game-masters-guide#common-mistak... ) is "Long Introductions", which ties into lore writing to a degree. The site encourages GMs to "Find ways to reveal background info during the game, rather than revealing all of it up front", and to start sessions in media res, both of which the GMs often choose to forgo in favor of writing up a lot of background information, often presented as mandatory reading.
Both "light, universal rules" and "easy on the introduction, big on the action", core ideas of the site, are almost -discouraged- in the community, either openly on as an unspoken consensus. Core rules are seen as "boring" and "limiting", while they were designed to be as non-obstructive, easy, universal and liberating as possible.
At the moment of writing, there are 8 listings in the "Upcoming Games" section, and one open table running right now. Each of the tables except one has its forum dedicated to abundant house rules and/or lore information, and the one that doesn't have a filled-out forum, presents its houserules in the table info. You cannot just join a game and play from the get-go, as promised by the site intro. The fairly rigid community of the site, which is now its core and primary audience, only persists in cementing this paradigm shift that I personally perceive as negative and alienating.
Note that I do not discourage creativity, such as creating game systems and lore information; it is just that there are other free sites better suited for that kind of prep-heavy gaming, such as Roll20. The idea behind Fabletop is to -avoid- the prep and heavy mechanics.
What do you think on this issue? Please keep it civil and avoid flame-wars.
(It would be perfect to hear Frost's take on this question, but I'm perfectly aware it's a pipe dream).